A standard gas (not high efficiency) hot water tank also works when the power is out, as there is no electricity required to run it.
I’m not too worried about that or earth quakes as I have well water and a backup generator, but both of those are good points
Depends on what is available in the home. Natural gas tankless may not be as hard of an exchange as an electric tankless. If you have a natural gas tank water heater, then it will be mostly about ventilation as the gas line and 110 outlet are already there. Electrical tankless isn’t a straight across exchange from an electric tank water heater. Electric tankless require more electricity with often 2 double pole breakers. These breakers and electric lines have to be added in and can be costly.
We would love to have a tankless but our house is 90 years old. The electric upgrades needed to support one prevent us from doing so.
Another advantage for us with the electric tank water heater, is the ability to fire up the generator when the electricity is out do to weather and still get hot water. Wouldn’t be able to do that with the tankless.
Hard water and either low or high water pressure can be a factor with tankless also.
The “benefit” is that the demand energy is smaller.
A tank water heater heats the stored water slower using a peak of 40,000 BTUH. One of the reasons you can run out of hot water if “everyone” is trying to shower at the same time (assuming you tank isn’t big enough).
The tankless instantaneous heater must be able to heat 50° water (approx) to 110° immediately. That takes significantly more BTUH. Most instantaneous heaters are 160,000 BTUH or more for an equal GPM.
For a typical US residential home, you might have to increase your gas service (or electric panel max Amps) to be able to install an instantaneous.
Demand is going to be a massive problem once everything is electric.
What’s funny is that people are willing to spend thousands more for instantaneous, but not for a better insulated and larger tank that would actually be better than the instantaneous in the long run. Funny, this still ties into the theme of the thread: First Cost is king.
I guess this makes sense. People use 1 antiquated system to accommodate another antiquated system.
Some people like to take long showers, so instantaneous is by far better for them. If I take a 15 minute shower that would completely empty a house’s hot water tank.
In the last 10 years my water went from about $50/month to now $150 month so limiting those long showers these days.
My tank water heater is in the finished basement which I never heat so having a tankless in that location might be more efficient than keeping the water hot in a cold area 24/7. ??
Anyone has experience with a heat pump WH? MY existing Heat pump air handler and water heater are all next together.
I think the water rates just increased (a lot) in the last decade. Long showers cost more in gas/electricity than water, unless you’re taking cold showers.
Most people with really high water bills are using it to water their lawns.
How long does it take?
I agree that it is done by hand. But the assembly process is optimized. This is a product which is on its 15th or 16th generation, not a new and novel product. Apple’s own engineers have got to be working on this issue which dwarfs their other technical challenges.
Where in the country you are matters a lot.
Water bills are highly affected by local factors. In much of the west demand exceeds supply and water is apportioned among states and communities.
In other areas, water treatment plant investment is driving up monthly bills.
In Northern New England, tankless water heaters, like heat pumps are not adequate. Winter temperatures are too low.
Well, I found this:
The increased labor cost is only part of the equation. Semiconductor production involves creating toxic waste, a LOT of toxic waste. If you’re more or less free to dump it how you want it significantly decreases compliance costs.
https://www.mechead.com/manufacturing-journey-iphone-factory-floor-retail-store/
Older article but 94 Production lines produce 500k phones a day, NY Times estimates there is around 17 hrs of human hands touching an iPhone, I find that number to be high honestly.
Foxconn’s facilities in Zhengzhou cover 2.2 square miles and can employ up to 350,000 workers, many of whom earn about $1.90 an hour.
From another article:
It’s a touchy issue, but the late Apple found Steve Jobs once told (a former US President) that these iPhone jobs won’t be coming back to the US. And cheap labor is not the reason; it’s the economics of scale in both human resources and manufacturing facilities
One of the main reasons:
It is reported that where American companies would take months to pool thousands of industrial engineers and even more months to construct new assembly lines to accommodate a trivial but urgent change in iPhone’s spec—say, its glass panel must curve to hatch on the body six weeks prior to launching—it only takes 15 days in China.
And this is not the way the USA has always been. Back during the Vietnam War, the US Navy approached Hatteras and said “You know that small fiberglass pleasure boat you guys make? Can you make one with jets and a turning radius of nothing and gun mounts here and here?” Seven days later they had a prototype.
17 hours is not an insignificant amount of labor at US rates. At 2 bucks / hour it’s only $34 and there’s minimal additional costs in benefits, and minimal compensation if a worker is injured.
In the US you’d be looking at probably $30 / hour (on the LOW side) once you factor in benefits, employment taxes, and other misc costs. And having a large manufacturing facility like that is a prime target for unions. And any type of construction in the US takes forever due to all the safety regulations that go around it. In China they can just DO stuff.
Not always well, as we know
I choose not to believe the 17 hour number, because if it is accurate, Apple needs a new management team.
I am not an Apple fan by any means but their engineering is not that bad.
I do believe the supply chain location issues, but there is already some movement of suppliers to production in the US and will probably be more companies expanding here rather than in the far east because of Trumpian pressure.
Whether the obstacles to timely movement are likely to be removed is something one can argue about.
I remember sitting at a pool in Petionville, a suburb of Port Au Prince, Haiti and talking to an executive of a women’s bra company which had production performed in Haiti. They were willing to take the risks of producing there because they had planned ahead. They could produce their product in any of half a dozen countries. They had only the raw materials for one production run in Haiti at any time. They could shift production on a month’s notice.
Obviously, they are unlikely to produce anything in Haiti today.
And obviously their supply chain was much shorter.
BTW iPhones are much more expensive in China than in the US. The Chinese government taxes them heavily.
Our Chinese tour guide ran US tours for Chinese, and made his greatest income buying iPhones in the US and bringing them back to China where he resold them.
We spend around $4K a year for water. LOL Good ole NYC and their sewage charges… It’s not the water that’s expensive, it’s the treatment rate and it doesn’t matter if you are watering your lawn or washing your car. You pay for that water to be treated too…
Been doing a lot of lawn watering this year… It hasn’t really rained since August here.
Might get a few drops tonight for the first time in 6 weeks.