Because your dose was too high…the physiologic dose is .3-1 mg < 2 mg anything beyond that is straight to hangover town. And for those who can handle much more without any affects there are upstream issues that haven’t been diagnosed - fairly simple heuristic although reductive but isn’t everything?
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There are people very close to me who are in the space who don’t pursue the pharmacodynamics of their fields, which baffles me. They also haven’t had real sleep in decades. It really fuqs with your PFC and your capacity to think diminishes even more. Our PFC shrinks about 5% in volume every decade (again reductively for most people who don’t do anything about it) - some rare folks have very low thresholds in their PFC so they operate even with lower volume - those are folks we recognize as having above average intelligence. Most people fall into the other half and mostly have limbic response to everything and it’s very visible.
’ I had an MRI done and the doctor said it was the best MRI he’s every seen. I don’t know what he tested. It’s standard. I don’t know what he tested for, but he said it was the best MRI he’s ever seen ’
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I am sorry it was your turn to be a target of these so-called studies.
Ever since people with access to some medical data have had PCs, there have been studies like this one which lack any scientific validity.
Many of those who promote or publish them have credentials, but rarely are they the credentials to qualify them to do a scientific study. The press have no meaningful knowledge of what is science and what is not, nor do many of the general public.
And we certainly do not want to discuss the politicians and professional activists.
We have recently seen the removal of the black box warning on Hormone Replacement Therapy, which was based on a similar data analysis, and was non-reproducible.
Hopefully, it will not take as long and your business will continue to thrive, and the patients suffering from insomnia will continue to get relief.
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Thanks. We are recovering thankfully. This “study” was a doozy. Might be the worst example of “science” I’ve seen directed towards the supplement industry to date.
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Right up there with everyone who goes “SUPPLEMENTS AREN’T FDA REGULATED” - yes, they are, it’s just reactive not proactive.
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Oh absolutely, that part was great. However the amount of emails I’d send at night that were all gibberish that I thought made perfect sense were alarming….
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I don’t remember what normal OTC vitamin doses are…I am pretty sure they were higher obviously than that. Again, though, even at those doses it didn’t do much for me.
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Vitamins as in minerals/multi-vitamins? No limit really all depends on subjective threshold, absorption, bioavailability/elemental amount - go low and titrate up.
Personally, I take a full dose of the multi daily but I also have very high thresholds for everything mineral - whatever I don’t use I pee out.
I also have extensive patient history and health logs more than any institution would be willing/able to do and get tested every 6 months of so pending need.
Melatonin - really no need for more than 1mg if you’re highly sensitive (receptor level responsiveness + pathway amplification) - this is very unlike minerals which have slow mechanical chemistry - and if it doesn’t “work” then there are other cascades in your body that need attention.
Suffice it to say that melatonin is not a nutrient. Lots missed and lots to discuss.
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Not totally true. Vitamins A and D are stored in the body, and can build up to excessive levels. The recent bad advice to use Vitamin A to treat measles has resulted in at least one hospitalization for liver damage; made the news once, I never heard an update.
Taking excessive B and C just gives you more expensive pee; but the fat soluble vitamins should not be mega-dosed.
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There is even more nuance to it. My specific Skin Type hovers between Type II and Type III and so I need more Vitamin D3 than someone who is Type ! - solubility and accumulation are one part of the equation - metabolic turnover matters.
I can take 30K IU D3 (with comensurate K2) with no issues.
My IGF-1 levels are average for my age cohort and shouldn’t be with all my interventions so I probably burn through it quicker.
My inflammation load (CRP) is 2.5 which is lab excellent but 100% from my history of 1.2
Both of these have implication in D utilization.
Vitamin D toxicity isn’t just accumulation but a byproduct of high calcium, dysfunctional magnesium and/or poor renal clearance.
These things are fluid depending on subjective biology which is why the golden rule is “…go low and titrate up.” pending how one feels/verifies threshold through lab work.
“I also have extensive patient history and health logs more than any institution would be willing/able to do and get tested every 6 months of so pending need.”
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K is also a fat soluble vitamin that can stick around. K2 might not be… I forget. Haha
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No it’s not, it’s a synthesized hormone. Grandfathered in…..
There are plant sources - St. John’s Wort / Rice extracts - We’ve played around with this. The consumer doesn’t recognize the value of a natural source sadly… Thought we were sitting on a gold mine when we figured out how to source it that way but alas - cheap always wins and the consumer just assumes that the vitamins and supplements they buy are natural. Nothing could be further from the truth…
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Slightly more nuance than above.
Biotin supplementation can affect your blood test results since many assays are affected by biotin. Mention to your doctor and/or testing provider if you’re taking it.
Some b-vitamin megadoses (folate) can hide other b-vitamin (B-12) deficiencies until the clinical effects (neurological damage) are irreversible.
Niacin (either niacinamide or niacin) megadoses (1-3 gram range) chronically can cause adverse effects, including liver toxicity.
B-6 in SUPER insane doses (1 gram +) chronically can cause neurological symptoms.
High-dose (15 mg) beta-carotene (pre-vitamin A) has been linked to cancer in smokers & got removed from the AREDS-vitamins in AREDS-2.
Fat-soluble vitamins ([preformed] A, D, E, K) can have both acute toxicity and chronic toxicity issues.
Minerals usually affect each other’s absorption (positively or negatively) when coingested.
Selenium has a weird U-shaped behavior with prostate cancer I can’t currently remember.
I have personally been PRESCRIBED 50k IU D3 twice weekly before due to blood-test-evidenced deficiencies, but anything above 5k or so IU I’d recommend talking to a doctor about.
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Vitamins and nutrients and supplements are often purchased because of a belief system.
Some work, some do not work. Some are supported by scientific studies, some could never support the costs of scientific studies.
My attitude has always been somewhat hypocritical. I take those I think might work and have been skeptical about the industry.
That even was the case when my wife ran an organic food co-op and touted Rodale-style attitudes toward these products.
I have some blood test shown problems that my doctors recommend supplements to combat. Taking them has not remedied the problems, but they have not gotten worse. The cost of taking the supplements is trivial, and there has been no evidence of it doing any harm.
I am glad the suppliers exist and I am free to buy and try. But I am pretty sure that I do not qualify as a believer.
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Biochemistry is mechanistic not philosophical.
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Its application can be either or both without altering that fact.
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I mean, technically? Placebo/nocebo effect is philosophically-induced changes in biochemistry. We’re REALLY complicated little bags of chemicals. Lake is just saying that gut feeling has been involved in some of the choices of supplementation in the past. Whether or not it’s logical, people are like this. I’m not superstitious, but I’m a little stitious myself.
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It exists whether you believe it or not. Just because a person doesn’t know how the mechanism works or the causal link - it doesn’t make it belief. It’s a bit like gravity, where gravity is a single equation, clean, but biochemistry (i.e. our biology) is thousands of interlocking circuits, messy. They are: real, measurable, belief agnostic, opinion agnostic, responsive to inputs.
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still neurochemical cascades
Yes I agree, but my point is irrespective of the rationale - it exists outside of it not because of it.
The core physiology is non-negotiable. So in our examples:
electrolytes, IGF-1 thyroid, ferritin perfusion, ATP, mitochondria etc is gravity - core
a layer after it would be something like:
limbic system, pfc, vagal tone, sleep architecture, autonomic balance etc - this is how core physiology is used
then we have what you and lake are talking about which is the modulation of physiology viz a viz:
cortisol, neurotransmitters, cytokines, pain pathways, perfusion patterns, autonomic signaling etc
This is belief modulating the gravitational field - it doesn’t defy gravity; gravity remains.
placebo exists but is temporary but it can’t restore/repair/replace the core - the core laws stay the same regardless of temporary upregulation or downregulation
It’s a vast difference. Maybe because I live through it and its constantly top of mind
yolo
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The world is flat bruh….
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