safe-t claim and ups claim denied

Good morning all, been lurking here for a while and I want to start out by saying thank you. Many of the questions I’ve had I was able to find answers for without actually having to ask. However I’m kind of stuck on this one.

Over the last week we’ve had 3 returns that never made it to our building marked as delivered per UPS tracking, however none of these packages were returned to us. I even ran into our UPS driver who was able to confirm that he did not drop off a return to us that day. It is strange to me that this package was marked as delivered at the same time all of our other packages were dropped off, but this one wasn’t among them.

Filed a safe-t claim for one of them as a test, it was granted for the return shipping, of course the product was worth almost $100. I was not able to file a safe-t for 1 of these orders and I goofed and refunded the customer when they sent a message asking why they hadn’t gotten a refund yet and tracking showed the item was returned (won’t be doing that again), and I was denied on the last due to the fact that tracking shows it was delivered.

Contacted Seller Support (this was my 1st time contacting them and now I understand why ya’ll hold them in such “high esteem”) and they were of course no help. Outside of the accent and their office background noise I was able to finally understand them tell me that it wasn’t their problem and that I had to deal with UPS directly because it was a delivery issue.

I’ve seen people say no you can’t claim direct with UPS, and others say yes, so on to UPS I go. I did find the UPS preferred claims # through one of the forums threads, they were super useful :roll_eyes: and transferred me to somewhere else who directed me to just file a claim through the website, which I did. I now have 2 of them showing “approved”, but show the action required icon, and 1 denied because “A record of delivery was provided”, not sure how they have proof of delivery on something that our driver confirms he did not deliver to us. And btw, our UPS driver has been excellent, he’s always on time even though we have an early afternoon deadline for pickup, and has always been very helpful with any questions or issues that come up, etc. so I am fairly certain the issue doesn’t involve him.

So now that the long winded story is out there, the real question is do I have any actual recourse left? How can I provide proof that packages weren’t delivered when tracking shows they were. And yes, I did verify that our return address is correct.

I love how Amazon protects customers to the umpteenth degree, but won’t hold up their end of the bargain when it comes to sellers, again, I’m starting to see why so many sellers have taken umbrage.

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First off welcome to SAS! I’m glad to know that we are all providing info to help even without having to ask questions!

Sometimes I have an issue where packages get delivered to the wrong street (so different truck) because my street name is very close to another street name in my area. Could that have happened here? Example 123 Dockland Street Vs 123 Dock Street?

My other thought is call up UPS and ask them if they can pull the GPS location of the delivery scan.

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Thanks much, I guess I didn’t realize that UPS had GPS tracking on all of the delivery scans. I’ll have to try to get a hold of someone there today.

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And now the plot thickens and makes me look like a jacka$$… GPS location on all 3 deliveries shows our location…I still can’t figure out how we have a package scanned, when our UPS driver confirmed that he did not deliver a return package to us when that scan took place :exploding_head:

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We’ve figured it out. My boss received 3 small envelopes of random crap like balloons, etc. and didn’t think to tell anyone since he figured it was just a mix up and threw them out. Obviously someone (seemingly 3 someone’s) scammed us by returning random junk in not the original packaging…

Could/would this be related to the drop shipping from Walmart? Just wondering if they’ve gotten wise to the fact I send them to A-Z immediately every time we get an INR claim… It’s usually only 2-3/month so it hasn’t been a big issue for us, especially since we use Amazon buy shipping and Amazon has always footed the bill on the INR claims, but if they’re going to start hitting us with fraudulent returns where we have to fight for safe-t and they may only cover a %, it may become a big enough thorn that we want to address it.

If this is related to the Chinese drop shippers, how can we prevent this from happening? Do we need to start selling on Walmart so it’s only us selling our product on that platform? There’s a decent number of listings that have been copied multiple times on there…

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Welcome again to SAS.

When we ship items and buyers complain about INR, regardless of the tracking showing delivered, Amazon covers the buyers, either at their expense or ours. When we claim INR on a return, Amazon says “take it up with the carrier, we don’t know and we don’t care.” I have never won a SAFE-T claim for a return that the buyer shipped back, whether the tracking shows delivered or not.

In your case, it seems that something was delivered, so this is a different situation.

To address returns of wrong/different items, this is our process.
If the item was not RFS, then we issue a refund of 1 penny. We use the “materially different” return reason for 100% restocking fee, including pictures of the return packing showing the label and another of the item returned along with a picture of the correct item so the people looking at the claim can easily see it’s the wrong item. Then we add 1 penny in the discretionary refund field (this used to be necessary to make the refund go through, I don’t know if it still is as I haven’t tested it lately.) It is much easier to win an AtoZ claim over restocking fees, assuming you applied them correctly, then it is to win one over a non-refund, and you get to control the restocking fee amount. Waiting for Amazon to refund then filing a SAFE-T claim is less desirable because you don’t know if/when Amazon will actually refund the order and the amount you can recoup from a SAFE-T claim is unreliable.

If the order was already refunded by Amazon, you can file a SAFE-T claim. Since you have the returned package with the nonsense items, you should have a reasonable chance to win the claim and get back at least some of the value of the order. Standard defense of “buyer returned wrong item, we cannot refund until the correct item is returned, please reimburse my funds” and include the same pictures as above. There is no guarantee how much you will get back, but you should get more than just the shipping.

Unfortunately, without the actual return to take pictures of, your ability to file a viable SAFE-T claim or defensible restocking fee is compromised.

I have not noticed that my scam returns are related to dropshippers from other sites. At least for my business, return theft hasn’t followed any pattern I’ve identified. I don’t think you need to change your business practices over this except to be more careful to hold in to scam returns to file claims.

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Thanks for the additional info Hobbs! I will definitely keep this in mind going forward, unfortunately most of our returns are RFS so we’ll likely get screwed on any of those…

I am relatively certain this is related to drop shipping, I was confused at first on why all 3 of these returns started in Ontario California, when the orders were from OH, MN, and TN…

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If I’m not mistaken, this could be the return label’s “birth location” not necessarily the first scan location. Double check tracking history on those. If they were Amazon issued labels (and since we are talking RFS I assume they are!) Amazon wouldn’t know and honestly doesn’t care where the sale was shipped to, they just issue a generic “Return” label that isn’t tied to a ship from location.

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I did check the tracking, they show the 1st 2 actual scans in Ontario California… Not trying to argue, just giving some extra context is all.

|Apr 02, 2025 12:38:00 AMGMT-08:00|Ontario CA US|Package left the carrier facility.
|Apr 01, 2025 09:03:00 PMGMT-07:00|Ontario CA US|Package arrived at a carrier facility.
|Apr 01, 2025 07:47:36 AMUTC||Package left the shipper facility This is the amazon label created scan…

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Yep, scratch my theory!

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We were talking here, it seems people are willing to work harder to scam their way to a living than they would actually have to work to make an honest one LOL

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Some people, yeah unfortunately

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Seems like this might be ready to kick off… This thread is detailing the same thing we were getting hit with (I’ve got another one in transit) All returns are being sent back with garbage from Ontario CA, La Mirada CA, all greater LA…

All that remains to be seen is if Amazon will actually do something about it as Xander is suggesting.

https://sellercentral.amazon.com/seller-forums/discussions/t/4e4b0ccc-f51f-4f3f-9f9a-f4c13f78d63c

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All you can do is keep filing SAFE-T claims. The more these fraudulent orders hurt Amazon’s pocket, the more likely they are to do something about it.

Of course, “doing something about it” could end up as “we have removed SAFE-T claims, all decisions are final” but that will be the beginning of the end of third part sellers on the platform.

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To be fair, that’s not the only NSFE discussion where Xander - whose Posting History seems to suggest having now come out of the stupor which was pretty-clearly exhibited in most-every reply over the first several weeks after his/her/its return from a long hiatus (link, SAS) - has been rather zealous in requesting images of Switcheroo Returns, the applicable 17-digit Order IDs for such scammery, and related claims/appeals IDs over the last several days (citational references available upon request).

2025-05-06T04:00:00Z, Xander posted responses to all of the said threads pledging that the data thus gathered had sparked a diversion of Amazon’s internal resources (read: time and treasure), in order to produce an investigation, as a result of her/his/its escalation of the matter higher up the chain of command than the lower echelons of Amazon’s Byzantinely-intricate, poorly-siloed, and badly-bloated support infrastructure.

Presumably, said escalation was first and foremost submitted to that demonstrably-ineffectual (link, SAS) & oft-laughable (link, SAS) infernal internal Amazon Team, the CCU (‘Amazonese’ for “Counterfeit Crimes Unit” [link, Home/Landing Page, Amazon Blog]) - an escalation which in and of itself, given the last dozen years of evidence regarding that team’s ‘efforts’ to combat such aspects of “brushing” scams as this one, would not seem to offer solid hope of seeing a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel - but I suspect that in this case, certain pending Triangulation Fraud litigation(s) could well bear better fruit than that we’ve tasted, ignominiously, in the past…

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Is it normal for a “100%” restocking fee through a safe-t claim to be minus the Amazon selling fees? I went back and forth a couple times with them after they granted (so graciously) a 50% restocking fee. After that they threw a few more bucks at it and called it good. When I appealed again, they said that the matter was closed due to this being a 100% restocking fee, minus applicable fees for selling on amazon…

Just wondering if there is some fine print somewhere that states as much, or if they’re blowing smoke…If it weren’t RFS I would have charged the entire amount back to them, I don’t know why this would be any different

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SAFE-T claims are a reasonably reliable way to get some money back when Amazon takes what isn’t theirs, but it is not a reliable way to get back everything you deserve. Amazon will often grant less than they should simply because they can.

This is one of the reasons I prefer restocking fees to SAFE-T claims: I can withhold the correct amount instead of asking Amazon to reimburse me, if they could be so kind, the money that was mine that they debited from me in violation of their own policies. I treat SAFE-T claims as a last resort when other better courses of action have failed.

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Thanks for the reply, I guess I’m going to take what we’ve gotten back and call it a “win?”…Unfortunately almost all of our returns are RFS, so safe-t is the only recourse we have 90+% of the time…But I guess we shall see how much of an impact this actually has on us.

The company as a whole is quite a bit more than just our Amazon sales, it’s more of a side hustle the owners have played with the last several years, so a few bucks won’t interfere with the bottom line in any measurable way, and I’m positive I’ve spent more in time on this that the item is worth, but I have a hard time letting things like this go based purely on principle. I can’t stand it when people are willing to work harder to avoid work, than the work itself would be.

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Two of the most relatable things I’ve seen today…

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