Yay or Nay on EVs?

[anon51904725]

Yay or Nay… That is the question.

Personally I, speaking for myself tonight, have no inclination
to purchase an EV.

I realize you are all very shocked by this revelation as many here
seem to already be EV owners posting your ownership pros and cons.

Maybe I am just in the wrong demographic:

As of 2020, owners of EVs were predominantly middle-aged
white men earning more than $100,000 per year.

• People aged 55+ make up 53.6% of EV owners.
• Those earning $100,000+ annually make up 57% of EV owners.
• 87% of EV owners in the U.S. are white.

@ASV_Vites

Let’s step into reality when it comes to EV’s.

It is not yet an affordable form of transportation for the
majority of our population.

They are not “green” energy.
Their negative impact on the environment far exceeds modern
ICE engine technology and manufacturing methods.

@ASV_Vites

The damage done to the planet mining for the materials in terms of diesel exhaust output and land stripping far exceeds any benefit for the planet.

Agreed and I would add that they are not easily, if at all, recyclable.

@packetfire

The damn things are not made to be easy to work on, and errors or even a simple dropped tool could suddenly become fatal when trying to de-fang (discharge) the pack.

@ASV_Vites

EV’s are not the future in their current form.

Agreed.

I have more to say on this subject but time tonight is limited.
Stay Tuned!

[papy]

@Bird_of_Paradise @ASV_Vites @dwat0870 here ya go!

Yay or nay: Elvis/Beatles/Elvis vs Beatles

As requested, here’s your SellersAskSellers chance to weigh in on the greatest debate of the 20th century! 1. Are you a fan of Elvis? Favorite song(s)? 2. Are you a fan of the Beatles? Favorite song(s)? 3. You can only pick one: Elvis or Beatles I’ll go first: Yes! All Shook Up, Always on My Mind, Blue Christmas Yes! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, Baby You’re a Rich Man, Here Comes the Sun, Ob la di, Eight Days a Week, I Am the Walrus, and on and on… Beatles!

[anon51904725]

@Image

“Yay” to the EV with much, much understanding. Past, Present and Future.

Thank you for your posts in this thread.
Your honesty and detailed experience is informative and refreshing!

@Image

However, the second one (EV) is on the third battery. These cost $25,000 on a $30,000 car. So the manufacture has provided $75,000 in batteries. We spent $30,000, fine with us. We do know, one day it may stop, now not under warranty and die with no grave to put her in.

This surprised me although I do think you posted years ago that
a replacement battery had to be shipped from France.

My research had always suggested that the cost of a replacement
EV battery was 40% of the cost of the EV when new.
In the case of a 30,000 EV that would equate to 12,000.
You have opened my eyes in that the cost may be even greater.

It is likely no wonder then that manufacture’s of EV’s are losing
billions of dollars and cutting back on their investment in the EV market.

Ford lost 1.3 Billion in just one quarter on EV sales and is projected
to lose 5 Billion for the year.

Special thanks to @ASV_Vites for also pointing this out.

The other aspect:

@Image

We do know, one day it may stop, now not under warranty and die with no grave to put her in.

Agreed…
They are not recyclable and the replacement battery costs
exceed the cars value over time.

What will you do with the toxic waste with “no grave to put her in”?

Are there Hazmat services available in your area that can
safely haul off and dispose of the toxic waste after the funeral?

[dwat0870]

Well, one solution (NOT recommended) is to do what a now deceased teacher that my wife taught with did a couple of times –

Drive (if possible) to the most sketchy part of town, take the plates off the car, leave the vehicle, and get the he$$ out of there. Report it as missing from your driveway.

The only ones I’m fairly familiar with from over the years would be the North side of Milwaukee and the SOUTH side of Chicago, though some parts of the south side of Milwaukee are about as bad.

This was back in the days before everyone had a doorbell camera (or those FANTASTIC Eufy ones) so there was no video evidence of who drove off with it.

Now you would have to remember to leave your cell phone, smartwatch and any other electronic devices at home as well.

[MWFC1]

One point worth mentioning, the batteries from EV’s are actually recyclable. Especially the parts that are mined at great expense.
Here’s an article from Car & Driver on the subject: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/
A couple of points that I found interesting:

1. Unlike liquid hydrocarbons, whose energy content is gone after they’re burned as gasoline, an atom of cobalt is an atom of cobalt regardless of how many batteries it’s been in. So, end-of-life EV batteries offer a future source of those valuable metals, already extracted from the ground and neatly packaged in a box.
2. So, don’t worry about the disposal of your EV’s battery pack at the end of its life. Odds are it’ll be carefully collected and broken down into its component parts, at which point its fundamental components will be made right back into more batteries—perhaps for your next EV.

[dwat0870]

@MWFC1

the batteries from EV’s are actually recyclable.

They are recyclable but it is not an inexpensive function.

It may have been somewhere here even, but I saw one thread where a person had looked at doing this. Their first problem was the cost of insurance to even get started – astronomical!

Then, hiring people that could handle and dismantle these SAFELY is crazy. They had considered former military explosives experts as one source of reliable employees.

From that story in Car& Driver, they mention one large operation already going –

“Currently, Redwood’s biggest challenge is procuring a sufficient number of EV batteries to recycle. The company has set up programs with auto-recycler trade groups and automakers, including Ford and Volkswagen, to boost its supply of used cells to feed into its grinders and purifiers. The U.S. Department of Energy even gave Redwood a $2 billion loan to build out its Nevada factory.”

So, they are up and operating but don’t get enough cells to operate efficiently.
OF COURSE the Government gave them $2 BILLION to figure it out.

[anon51904725]

@MWFC1

…the batteries from EV’s are actually recyclable.

For polite conversation, I would simply say that a statement
like that requires an asterisk.*

I read the short article linked in your post and found it to have
been written by an EV advocate with a potential bias.
Nothing inherently wrong with that but this is what objective,
scientific journals are saying:

Key points:

1. Because of the complexity of the recycling process,
   and the associated expenses, currently just 5% of
   lithium-ion batteries are “recycled” with mixed results.

   There are no simplified or streamlined solutions presently
   available to make large scale recycling possible.

2. There are a very limited number of EV battery recycling
   facilities worldwide, with only 2 existing in Europe.
   The process is energy intensive, the required burning of
   the battery emits greenhouse gases, and a lot of non-recyclable
   waste is created throughout the process.

3. Disassembling and separating the components in EV
   batteries for recycling can be a dangerous, complex
   and expensive process.

   EV batteries are prone to combust, explode and release
   toxic gasses during recycling, endangering workers and property.

   Even simply storing EV batteries in recycling and waste management
   facilities can cause explosions and fires.

4. Batteries contain many materials, including plastics, copper,
   aluminum, nickel, and cobalt, that some claim are valuable
   enough to make recycling worthwhile.

   With current EV battery recycling technology the costs of
   infrastructure, training, insurance and other operating costs,
   far exceed the value of any and all materials that may be
   separated from an EV battery during the recycling process.

   Current EV recycling facilities do low volume and are generally
   funded by governments who have an interest in improving the
   technology to avoid what some see as a looming toxic waste
   crises with thousands of aging EV batteries nearing the end of
   their life cycle and about to be disposed.

@dwat0870

The U.S. Department of Energy even gave Redwood a $2 billion loan to build out its Nevada factory.”

So, I suppose you are technically correct but I think we have a long
way to go before we can actually claim that EV batteries are recyclable.

There are still challenges ahead and while we are all rooting for the
technology to improve, I think that asterisk is necessary.

Think of it this way:

I can lift a Tesla over my head…
but only if it is cut into 10,000 pieces first
and I lift them one at at time.

So when I say I can lift a Tesla over my head…
I am technically correct but it really isn’t possible in practical terms.

[Jenga244]

Oh, you need not drive there and risk this…people from those areas are making house calls now in a suburb near you.

[anon51904725]

About a decade ago, encouraged by government subsidies, hundreds of automakers across China, both established players and startups, waded into electric-car manufacturing. They churned out huge numbers of EV’s.

“Only a few private customers chose to buy them.”

On the outskirts of the Chinese city of Hangzhou, a small dilapidated temple overlooks a graveyard of sorts: a series of fields where hundreds upon hundreds of electric cars have been abandoned among weeds and garbage.

Similar pools of unwanted battery-powered vehicles have sprouted up in at least half a dozen cities across China though a few have been cleaned up. In Hangzhou, some cars have been left for so long that plants are sprouting from their trunks. Others were discarded in such a hurry that fluffy toys still sit on their dashboards.

Source: Bloomberg

The same thing happened with bicycles in China:

When Bloomberg News visited late last month, reporters uncovered several sites filled with abandoned EVs in the city’s Yuhang and West Lake districts after scouring satellite images and hacking through overgrown dirt paths.

Are we headed the same direction?

[ASV_Vites]

@anon51904725

Are we headed the same direction?

I doubt it. I think the US is doing it a little smarter and carefully following the supply and demand theory. Moves are made in 1 direction or another. There is a glut of unsold EV’s but to the tune of a couple extra months of supply over normal vehicle inventory targets.

Let’s see what happen on 1-20-25. What happens there will determine the near-term future of EV’s.

The few people I know that have an EV love them (or maybe they are just saying that to make themselves feel better). Most people I know are looking towards Hybrids in their next vehicle choice. That’s where we are at.

I think it will be a natural progression - Internal Combustion - Hybrid - All Electric - as technology and the charging infrastructure improves, that will help with the adoption.

It will be interesting to see what the roads look like 5, 10, 20 years from now in terms of what is rolling down them.

[anon51904725]

@ASV_Vites

I doubt it. I think the US is doing it a little smarter and carefully following the supply and demand theory.

I want to agree with you.

@ASV_Vites

I think it will be a natural progression

Some states however have pending mandates concerning EV’s
and the phasing out of ICE vehicles.

@ASV_Vites

There is a glut of unsold EV’s but to the tune of a couple extra months of supply over normal vehicle inventory targets.

Yes there is and I think it would be even more of a “glut” but for some
dealerships refusing to order additional EV’s that are not selling or are
only sold with heavy subsidies and losses.

@ASV_Vites

Let’s see what happen on 1-20-25. What happens there will determine the near-term future of EV’s

I agree.
There will either be additional mandates or the freedom to choose.

@ASV_Vites

…as technology and the charging infrastructure improves

If history is a teacher, the technology may improve… on the
other hand Hydrogen fuel cells technology nor the fuel I prefer
from the super collider fusion project has not improved over
decades and billions of dollars while employing the brightest of minds.

@ASV_Vites

It will be interesting to see what the roads look like 5, 10, 20 years from now…

Yes it will and thanks for your response.

[ASV_Vites]

@anon51904725

Some states however have pending mandates concerning EV’s

While this is true, everyone knows it’s not possible with the current charging and overall grid infrastructure. They can mandate all they want but when nobody has power for anything because the electric grid blew up, that will change things. Doesn’t matter who’s running the country, reality is reality.

[papy]

Friendly reminder that we don’t do politics on SAS–even in Just for fun!. Because politics make it not fun. Just leave it out. Don’t mention it in passing, side-eye it, slide a reference in–just don’t.

If you can not avoid mentioning it in a reply, then please do not reply.

This is not new information.

• ABOUT: Community Expectations
• ❌ Friendly reminder: Politics, bigotry, & SAS

[joebcrafts]

Recycling anything more complex than a single type of material is extremely expensive and labor intensive and even the “homogenous” things have issues:

Printer paper, newspaper, cardboard, etc is “easy”. Grind it up into a pulp and make it again… though it will likely be a napkin, towel, or cardboard in subsequent lives because that material isn’t good enough (fibers too short, not as strong, couldn’t get all the ink/staining out, etc) to use 100% as printer paper again.

Aluminum cans melt it down… but impurities from food, liquid, the printing on it, etc is a challenge. Also, most aluminum cans have a plastic liner so the can isn’t just aluminum.

Plastic needs to be like plastic to recycle because they all have different melting points and properties.

Given the difficulties and expenses with things that are “mostly” homogenous from the start…

A battery: layers of different metals, plastic, graphite, lithium salts, etc. It is a lot harder to take it apart (to reuse) than it was to put together. Also even a “dead” battery (not holding a useful charge) is still quite capable of explosion/fire due to the very nature of Lithium and its propensity to exothermically react with water and/or excess oxygen.

[dwat0870]

@Jenga244

people from those areas are making house calls now in a suburb near you.

I’m laughing but only because it beats crying. What you said is sadly true. The only consolation is that I am in an area where the prosecution has still not been convinced that doing twelve ‘suspended sentence’ resolutions works as an alternative to repeat offenders at least spending some time away from society in general.

Unfortunately that is shifting as well as the more ‘enlightened’ move to the 'burbs to escape all the problems and bring their wrist slaps with them.

[anon51904725]

In any EV discussion I have viewed or participated in
supporting infrastructure, more specifically the lack of it,
always enters into the conversation.

Examples from this thread:

@ASV_Vites

If we converted fully to EV’s - that will add 3.167 BILLION Kilowatt hours of demand to the grid daily.

@Picks_by_Nisha

No doubt that work needs to be done on grid infrastructure; but that’s true even without EVs.

@Lost_My_Marbles

The extremely limited EVs available in our area and the lack of infrastructure to support them has made them pretty much a dead item here.

@doilyboutique444

I don’t feel like the grid is truly there to support EV’s…

In a recent consumer study of EV owners infrastructure was
the number one reason cited as to why 46% of US EV owners
surveyed said they were likely to switch back to a gas-powered vehicle.

Infrastructure was followed by concerns over range and decreased
performance in hot or cold weather.

The survey was conducted by McKinsey & Company.

So there is a basic consensus that the power grid needs
to be strengthened and expanded to support not only an
increased number of EV’s but everything else we power
and enjoy.

So why is it not being expanded?
Why is it actually contracting in some areas?

The answer lies in the disagreement concerning methods
or fuels used to power the grid.

Whereas it once was generally in the realm of
scientists and engineers to provide safe and affordable
power to the citizens… politics has hijacked it.

Not recognizing that and leaving it out of the conversation
is like discussing the formation of ice without discussing
the properties of water.

In keeping with forum rules, I am not here to discuss
politics. I am interested in maintaining and upgrading
the power grid to not only support EV’s for those who
choose to own them but also everything else that makes
us a productive, safe and thriving society.

If this thread survives, I will also be posting about how
building out the infrastructure to support increased EV
use is dramatically different than the build out of infrastructure
for ICE vehicles, how the resistance of change is not really
a factor in widespread EV adoption and perhaps even more!

For now I will close this post with this:

"Though a push from the automotive industry to fund charging infrastructure has led to a boom in public charging stations in the last two years, these have largely been money-losing ventures.

The ***** administration has set aside $7.5 billion for charging infrastructure and has said it would add 500,000 EV charging stations by 2030. But that effort has played out slowly so far, with only a handful of stations going live since the funding was approved two years ago."

Cheers.

[dwat0870]

@anon51904725

The answer lies in the disagreement concerning methods
or fuels used to power the grid.

On the bright side (my opinion) they are at least starting to discuss nuclear plants again. There is even talk about rebooting the Three Mile Island plant that did not melt down.

There was at least one story I saw that said the biggest draw on the existing power grid happens to be another source of debate – AI and the power needed to feed all these ‘creative’ projects that are planned. All energy suckers in the extreme.

[ASV_Vites]

@dwat0870

they are at least starting to discuss nuclear plants again.

Good, except NIMBY.

[Picks_by_Nisha]

Bill Gates is backing a new style nuclear plant in Wyoming that looks promising. The new design cuts the costs and construction time considerably; plus by having a reservoir of molten salt, can start up about 10x faster than the old designs (with a slight loss of efficiency). It’s being built to replace an old coal plant, so minimal problems with grid connection. If it works anywhere near as well as predicted, it should spark a surge in new plants.

As for NIMBY, I’d personally rather live near one of those than downwind from a coal plant.